Interview with Didi Widayadi

Central Java police chief, Didi Widayadi speaks to reporter Sally Neighbour about the deadly explosives cache found at Semarang and the Indonesian fight against terrorism.

The following is an edited interview transcript. Due to the possibility of mis-hearing, the ABC cannot vouch for its accuracy.

What do you think they planned to do with such a massive quantity of explosives?

Semarang was part of a police operation headed by Police Chief General Dai Bachtiar. It was not only the work of the Central Javanese Police Force. Clearly, terrorist groups do exist and some serious work by the Indonesian police has been able to uncover in Semarang, not only a spectacular amount of explosives but also documents which, once we had them translated by an expert in Arabic law and language were revealed to have been dedicated to Osama bin Laden.

Regarding the weapons, 900 kilograms of low explosive and maybe 100 kilograms of high explosive, and all the ammunitions and guns, what do you think they were planning? A series of attacks? One big attack? What do you think they wanted to do?

Clearly, they had prepared the equipment, and they had already put together 90% of it. So, all they would have had to do was take it with them, and they would have found it easy to finish putting it together when they reached their target. It's clear they had plans. Judging from the explosives, which were ready to detonate, and from the things that were scattered around, including the documents that explained how to assemble a car bomb and so on, they were clearly not acting independently. They were planning an act of terrorism.

But do we know what target? Do we know now? They've been in custody for a while. Do we know what targets they planned to hit?

Clearly, they would hit strategic targets. I can't be more specific, for technical reasons, but the important thing is that in this case we have conveyed a warning to all members of the community to be on the alert, to keep an eye on foreigners and on their neighbours, so that all members of the community are self-monitoring, and on the alert for terrorism, which I call a plague.

Do you think it's likely there are similar groups and similar warehouses of weapons elsewhere in Indonesia now, from what you know?

Clearly, the Indonesian government - the leaders and also Police [Chief] General Dai Bachtiar - don't want to be taken by surprise. We will remain alert. Because the preparations they made here were not the work of a moment, they had probably been here for a long time. So it's best for us to stay alert and not to run the risk of being too late [to prevent] acts of terror.

The men that were arrested in the house in Semarang were quite young, younger than the rest of the people arrested in the Bali plot. Do you think JI has spread out now, from the people who came from Afghanistan through a much larger and younger group? And what's your impression of JI now?

Those who have been arrested, both in Rejeki [Semarang], and in connection with the Bali and Marriott bombs, have been quite young. But we know that, while some of these people knew each other, some did not. And it can also be specifically stated that they have the same motivation, and they adhere to a particular faith or ideology. This is something we are paying close attention to - that in the war on terror, this third or fourth generation have modified their modus operandi, and also their motivation. The Central Java Police Force is paying close attention to this. This includes the consideration that terrorism among the current generation in Indonesia cannot be dealt with using repressive means, or military might. Instead, because it is a matter of belief, we need to empower them, to educate them. We have to engage in dialogue, and also consciousness-raising. Because it could be that these young people have only a superficial knowledge, and no deep understanding, of the aims of the JI terrorists. So, I always say that there have to be pre-emptive initiatives - consciousness-raising, education of the community about the dangers of terrorism by means of instilling in young people Javanese values, which as we know do not condone violence. Also the values of the Wali Sanga [the nine semi-legendary figures responsible for the introduction of Islam to Java], and Islamic values, which do not condone violence. Because Islam does not teach violence, it teaches how the community of Muslims can be safe in this world and the next. So we're getting back to basics as regards the nature of Islam, and also Javanese culture, which do not condone violence.

Did your view of JI change after the discovery of the Semarang cell? For example, did you think, it's larger than we thought?

If we look at the group called Jemaah Islamiyah - not Islam in general - we can't only look at the Rejeki [name of neighbourhood where weapons were discovered] case. It's not just national in scope, but also regional - or even more widespread, international. So it would be very narrow thinking if we were to describe the configuration of JI using only the Rejeki cell. But, the Rejeki case does give an indication that terrorist groups do exist, and the Rejeki group did not say anything about Jemaah Islamiyah. It only collected explosives, and documents - none of which contained information about the organisation called Jemaah Islamiyah. The existence of Jemaah Islamiyah was revealed by reading a printout from Imam Samudra's laptop. And also on the 24th in Pati, with the permission of the Police Chief, I took the five suspects to Pati to silence the controversial polemic surrounding Jemaah Islamiyah and the Rejeki cell, so that they could explain what Jemaah Islamiyah is, and its connection with Muklas and the Bali bomb in front of religious leaders and scholars, and Muslim activists, so they could hear it straight from the suspects that we had arrested. All this was done to assuage their doubts and prevent the polemic about Jemaah Islamiyah and terrorism dragging on and perhaps even being politicised. This included information about the Rejeki cell and the documents, and was done using proportional means and based on legal evidence. Praise God, due to this explanation, ordinary people now understand; and we can see that things have now calmed down, and the polemic has also died down. It turns out that Jemaah Islamiyah does exist, including the heads of the three Mantiqis, who have links to the radical groups of the past such as Darul Islam [movement for an Islamic state active in West Java and South Sulawesi in the 1950s and 1960s] and so on. Hopefully, now we have the perceptions, there will no longer be generalisations [that confuse] Jemaah Islamiyah the terrorist group with Islam as a whole. Because Islam does not teach terrorism or violence. That's the most important thing for all of us to hear, and for ABC viewers to see.

But your personal impression, from when after the Semarang cell was discovered, and the arrest of that cell, the arrest of Mustofa? Were you surprised at what you found, and did it change your view of how big that group was and how active it was?

Firstly, I was concerned. It had turned out that there was a group of Indonesians, who happened to be Muslims, who had imported a culture of terrorism and violence, either from the Middle East or Afghanistan, to Central Java, to Indonesia. Essentially Indonesian culture, and Javanese culture here do not recognise such a culture of violence. I was concerned about that, and also shocked that the [amount of] explosives and their preparations had both been on a spectacular scale. And this discovery could be said to be the largest in Indonesia, and several times bigger than the Legian bomb. This may help us all to appreciate the officers in the team led by Police Chief General Dai Bachtiar, who were able to prevent an explosion which would have caused even more casualties [than Bali].

How many people would you say are members of this organisation? Let's call them JI, not meaning Jemaah Islamiyah, the big Jemaah Islamiyah, the group Jemaah Islamiyah. How many people do you believe are there in Indonesia involved in that group?

According to the head of Mantiqi I, Mohammad Nasir, this is a clandestine organisation. There was the JI in Malaysia, but now it's a clandestine organisation, so of course, when they recruit personnel, if we knew [who they were], we would arrest them. But if you listen to their explanations about the group called Jemaah Islamiyah - that's not Islam as a whole. I want to emphasise that. Islam does not teach violence. - they have a proselytising group, and a group that organises demonstrations in order to further the cause of Islamic law. But there is also a group which carries out acts of violence and terrorism. Now, the problem is that we have to adopt an attitude to deal with the Jemaah Islamiyah movement or organisation, not just with the criminal aspects, but also the social-political ones have to be dealt with in a comprehensive fashion, and not just by the police taking steps to enforce the law. If we want to stop or reduce the appearance of new Amrozis we have to make them realise they are on the wrong path, and that Javanese and Indonesian cultures do not recognise such things.

We'll come back to the culture thing in a minute, but can you put a number on it? How many would you estimate in Indonesia in this underground group?

That's exactly what we're trying to find out. If they exist, we'll deal with them in a way consistent with their numbers. If they break the law, we have to be consistent in enforcing the law, whether they be Muslims, Hindus, or Chinese because we are dealing with criminal terrorism, we don't care what symbols they use, we're fighting crime. So it's the human beings, the negative elements, not the religion, not Islam, not Islamic schools or mosques or so on. We're consistent in enforcing the law against terrorism.

Are we talking about thousands?

No comment.

Why?

It's under investigation. We are carrying out investigations into all that, and they are not yet complete, and also they cover not only Central Java, not only Indonesia, but Malaysia, the Philippines; we're dealing with transnational crimes when we deal with terrorism. We cooperate [with countries] including Australia. So we're not finished, which means there are no numbers.

But your feeling, you must have formed an impression yourself?

No.

Hundreds?

No comment.

OK. But you do believe that they are still recruiting. Where?

We need to differentiate first. Based on the information they have provided, there are a number of categories we need to be aware of. There are efforts to instil certain convictions, certain ideologies - that's not terrorism. So in dealing with them, we have to use sound educational initiatives, so that people aren't misled by ideology. But when this becomes a jihad, when people carry out the jihad by suicide, by terrorism, this has to be handled differently. So there are steps being taken here in Central Java, methods or approaches we are using for these different categories. It is important to deal with them simultaneously, through law enforcement and education.

You say it's not important to focus where. But in Central Java even, you have Ngruki and the pesantren [Islamic boarding school] at Bojolali. And we now have suspects in Pakistan, we have graduates like Azmar and Ali Imron and Gufron from these schools. Isn't it important to focus on these schools? Secondly, at Boyolali there's a Man called Mustaqim, who is considered to possibly be senior, and at Ngruki, possibly still Aris Munandar. Are you going to arrest these people, Mustaqim and Aris Munandar?

He is a proscribed terrorist by the UN.

Please explain that.

Obviously, we are taking a 'person by person' approach to terrorism. We can't generalise and say that a particular school is a terrorist school. Criminals are criminals, and we'll deal with them. But we are also carrying out intelligence operations, where a particular institution has contributed to the number [of terrorists]. It's normal, in intelligence, to keep under surveillance, groups and individuals and institutions which are engaged in so-called radical activities. But such radicalism also needs further study. We need to have a consensus about what radicalism is. So we all still have a long way to go, but preventive measures take priority over repressive measures in opposing terrorism. That's what we're all concentrating on together, with all sections of the community in Central Java.

Mustaqim and Aris Munandar specifically?

Especially Aris is listed with the United Nations as a terrorist now. If they have committed a crime, we'll take action. Especially for extraordinary crimes [including] terrorism. That's obvious... Because we police in Indonesia can't work just on the basis of intelligence information or suspicion. There has to be evidence. If that exists, then we'll take action. The problem with the police force here is that we have to act in accordance with law.

Let's just look at Aris Munandar. Here is a man who is listed now with the United Nations as a terrorist with Indonesia's agreement, who is teaching at a school with a known record, or is part of a school organisation with a known record of producing bombers. Is it right that he just should carry on?

It comes back to this: give the evidence to the Indonesian police, and I guarantee I'll take action, if there is legal evidence that they've committed a crime. But frankly speaking, the problem is that cooperation in the war on terrorism gives the impression of being rather stagnant. One example is Hambali. He's really very important to us, but to date we've had great difficulty gaining access to him. So we can't make accusations based only on intelligence information. But if there is evidence, then give it to us. We'll take action against anyone in Indonesia. Without that - we recognise human rights, democracy, and the rule of law. We can't act arbitrarily, and how our democratic Indonesian society wants it to be. Without evidence, it's difficult for us to carry out investigations. Please give us, not just accusations, but evidence, and we'll take action I guarantee it.

Who's winning this war on terrorism? The Indonesian security or police, or are these groups growing faster than you can catch them?

It's hard to say. We'll leave that up to God above, Allah above. Terrorism knows no boundaries, terrorism doesn't care where its victims or targets are - America, or perhaps in Australia, Ireland, the Philippines. We'll pray that we're faster. The important thing is that everyone realises that terrorism brings a nation or society to its lowest point, because violence is the lowest form of culture and in the end will take a society, a people, a nation into misery and prolonged suffering. And it has to be handled together, it can't only be Central Java, the Indonesian police, or Indonesia, we have to do it together, to be united, not in enforcing the law, but by instilling - from the beginning, convictions which we regard as being right because no religion whether it be Catholicism, Protestant, Islam teaches people to act like that. We know that Catholicism and Protestantism teach love. Islam teaches all its people how to be safe in this world and the next. It doesn't teach that sort of thing [terrorism]. We have to fight terrorism together, because it is a struggle of civilisations. It's not just a criminal matter, it's extremely complex. As to who will win, only God knows. We will pray, and we will take actions, because of God above. God willing, we can prevent it. It could well happen in Australia, because terrorism knows no borders. I hope it doesn't happen. That it's happened in Indonesia should be a lesson for Australia to help Indonesia in the war on terror.